Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - February 2000
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:10:36 -0500
From: "peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com" <peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com>
Subject: HG: Music for a wedding.
Hello Everybody,
I've recently had the great honour of being asked to play some hurdy gurdy
music at a wedding. Since it's quite a happy story, at the risk of boring
you all, I'll tell you how it came about. Miss out the next paragraph if
you're short of time!
In July 1997 I spent a very enjoyable week sub-contracting as an electrician
at the WOMAD festival in Reading, England. (For those of you who haven't
heard of WOMAD, it stands for "World Music and Dance", and they exist to
promote arts from all over the world). During a slack period between
sorting occasional electrical faults I spent a little time playing to the
masses on my hurdy gurdy. Nothing formal - I just parked a chair among the
craft stalls and played a few tunes simply for the fun of it. As usual in
these situations it created a lot of interest - in fact it seemed remarkable
that at an event dedicated to 'World' music, almost nobody had seen or heard
a hurdy gurdy.
Now fast forward to last week, when the electrical firm I was working for
contact me to say the WOMAD festival director has contacted them because:
(1) a lady called J... wants the 'hurdy gurdy playing electrician' to play
at her wedding, and (2) if I play for weddings was I free for his?
Well, if she remembers me after that long I could hardly say "no",
particularly as having spoken to her she seems like a really nice lady. So,
since I've got a few months to practice, does anybody have any suggestions
for particularly apt music for solo hurdy gurdy to play at a church wedding?
Regards,
Peter Hughes.
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 02:04:52 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Music for a wedding.
>does anybody have any suggestions
>for particularly apt music for solo hurdy gurdy to play at a church
>wedding?
Dear Peter
I played solo hurdy-gurdy wedding music at a church several years ago and I
performed arranged music by Hotteterre and Leopold Mozart; both of them are
called something like "country wedding", I'm in the office now and the music
is in my home so I can't remember the name, I'll tell you tomorrow.
By the way...I played HG music at two weddings and now both the couple are
divorced...that's why I prefer to play in concert :o)
ciao
Marcello
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:42:05 -0500
From: "jvoblue _at_ webtv.net" <jvoblue _at_ webtv.net>
Subject: HG: Tuning
Hello again, HG people.
I am a guitar player who has recently acquired a hurdy gurdy. I am very
confused about basic tuning, pitch, string type and gauge. I realize
this is pretty basic, but it has been a source of considerable
frustration for me.
Thanks, Jim (the guy that really wants to learn how to play this thing)
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:27:56 -0500
From: Oliver Seeler <oseeler _at_ mcn.org>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Tuning
At 07:42 AM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello again, HG people.
>I am a guitar player who has recently acquired a hurdy gurdy. I am very
>confused about basic tuning, pitch, string type and gauge. I realize
>this is pretty basic, but it has been a source of considerable
>frustration for me.
>
>Thanks, Jim (the guy that really wants to learn how to play this thing)
You might have a look at the interactive explanation of Hurdy-Gurdy basics
on my Universe of Bagpipes web site - it won't answer all your questions
but might give you a place to start. You'll find the link to the HG section
at the bottom of the front page. URL is in my sig file, below.
Cheers,
Oliver
Oliver Seeler
Director, Nova Albion Research
oseeler _at_ mcn.org & bagpipes _at_ mcn.org
~visit our sites~
***The Universe of Bagpipes***
~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~
~sound clips & hundreds of photos~
~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~
http://www.hotpipes.com
~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~
~and~
*** Sir Francis Drake ***
~ an international educational resource ~
http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm
~ recommended by The History Channel ~
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:58:16 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: HG: mean tunings
Hi there,
just wondered if anyone with those wonderful books had a description of
the pitches in cents for Corette tuning?
cath
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:39:25 -0500
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.demon.co.uk>
Subject: HG: Corette tuning
Hi Cath,
Sorry not Corette, do you know anything about it ?
Is it regular or irregular, what instruments is it used on, have you any
idea of the date it appeared ?
I have the cent figures for the following temperaments
Equal Temperament (which is in fact Twelfth Comma Mean Tone)
Quarter Comma Mean Tone (early 16th century)
Fifth Comma Mean Tone (Lemme Rossi 1666)
Silbermann (1683-1753) Sixth Comma Mean Tone
Werckmeister 3 (1691)
Kirnberger 2 (1779)
Modified Kirnberger 2
Kirnberger 3
Neidhart (1724)
Barnes proposed J.S. Bach
Kellner proposed J.S. Bach
18th century EnglishOrdinary Temperament
18th century French Temperament Ordinaire 1
18th century French Temperament Ordinaire 2
18th century Italian Temperament
Vallotti (van Biezen) (1730)
Finchcocks (Byfield Organ 1766)
Oakes Park (England Organ 1790)
Thomas Young 2 (1800)
Royal Temperament (1961)
Pythagorean (Arnout van Zwolle 15 century)
Just Intonation (I gave you that already)
All the above are in the book I told you about
Anyone out there now of any sources on the net of such data ?
Graham Whyte, Abbotts Ann, England
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:58:30 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Corette tuning
At 01:39 PM 2/3/00 -0500, Graham Whyte wrote:
>Hi Cath,
>
>Sorry not Corette, do you know anything about it ?
>Is it regular or irregular, what instruments is it used on, have you any
>idea of the date it appeared ?
>Anyone out there now of any sources on the net of such data ?
Hi,
all I know is the name and that it's a mean tuning. We are using it for a
Boismortier program here in toronto with Tafelmusik at the end of the month.
I know the harps. player here can tell me next week and will let you (all)
know what she says, but if anyone happens to know I'd love to hear it here first
Anyway thanks for looking it up
cath
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:19:04 -0500
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: HG: PLEASE READ: change in subscribing policy
Dear HG List Members,
The nice people who provide our server access and mailing list software
seem to be unable to solve the problem of everybody getting subscribed to
the digest whether they want it or not. (They told me that they don't even
have a manual for the software !!!)
To solve this problem myself, I am now the only person who can subscribe or
unsubscribe someone from the list.
If you want to unsubscribe, you must send email to me, Alden, at
hurdy _at_ silverlink.net.
If you tell a friend about this list and they want to subscribe, they must
send email to me, as above. I can subscribe people to the list or the
digest, as they prefer, but there will be NO MORE AUTOMATED SUBSCRIPTIONS.
This policy is also described in the HG List webpage,
www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/list.html.
On the good side, this means that I'll be able to meet and greet everyone
who subscribes to the list, and I'll include a request for a brief
biography in the (new) welcome/rules letter.
Alden
The Somewhat Reluctant Listmaster ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:21:47 -0500
From: Judy V Olmstead <shanti _at_ thurston.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: PLEASE READ: change in subscribing policy
Alden -- Thanks for all your work!
I'm currently laid up with pneumonia but hope to be better soon since I'm
FINALLY following doctor's orders & resting.
Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:12:47 -0500
From: Judy V Olmstead <shanti _at_ thurston.com>
Subject: HG: Learning strategies
Hi -- I'm willing to share what I've learned about learning strategies if
anyone is interested--a combination of educational kinesiology,
Feldenkreis, and yoga--having started late I'm wanting to boost my ability
to learn in any way I can...Don't want to take the time though to write
this down unless there are interested parties out there!
Best, Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:40:25 -0500
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Learning strategies
--- Judy V Olmstead <shanti _at_ thurston.com> wrote:
> I'm willing to share what I've learned about
> learning strategies ... having started late I'm
> wanting to boost my ability
> to learn in any way I can.
Speaking as another late starter, I'm always
interested in a leg up.
> Don't want to take the
> time though to write
> this down unless there are interested parties out
> there!
Understandable.
-
-Roy T
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:07:22 -0500
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Corette tuning
> At 01:39 PM 2/3/00 -0500, Graham Whyte wrote:
> >Sorry not Corette, do you know anything about it ?
> >Is it regular or irregular, what instruments is it
> used on, have you any
> >idea of the date it appeared ?
--- Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com> wrote:
> all I know is the name and that it's a mean tuning.
I have to trust memory here. That may not be a good
thing, since I can't remember where I left the book...
Anyway, there was a discussion of Corette's tuning in
Robert Green's "The Hurdy Gurdy in 18th Century
France" the translated passage was not very specific.
Parameters were stated as "(x) interval is a little
lean."
> I know the harps. player here can tell me next week
> and will let you (all)
> know what she says.
I will be very interested to see it.
Later
-Roy (T)
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:13:51 -0500
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: HG: Corette tuning
Thanks to Roy for bringing up Robert Green's book, which I had forgotten.
According to Green, here is the translation of what Michel Corette wrote in
"La belle vielleuse":
"The string named the trompette is tuned in Ut and the two strings in the
keybox are tuned to the unison of Sol (B) [so that] the fifth [is] a bit
narrow against the Ut (A); [as are] also the fifths C, D, E, F, and G, H
and I a little less [narrow] and with regard to the other fifths a bit
stronger; one must take care to disengage the trompette after the fifth Sol
and the octaves of Ut are tuned"
Green and Professor Owen Jorgensen then tell us what this means:
"Tune the trumpet to C. Then tune the melody strings to G in unison, using
a narrow fifth between the trumpet and the melody strings. Then tune the
octave C with the trumpette. Disengage the trumpet and tune the other C.
The fifths C-G, G-D, D-A, and A-E are all the same size. The fifths E-B,
B-F#, and F#-C are a little less narrow. The fifths C-F, F-Bb, Bb-Eb,
Eb-Ab are stronger, or even less tempered than the previous fifths."
It's not clear from this discussion whether the first set of fifths are
perfect or not, simply that there are three sizes: wide, narrower, and
narrower still. Green and Jorgensen believe that this tuning is very
similar to a temperament called "temperament ordinaire" described by
D'Alembert. Jorgensen translated D'Alembert's work and discusses it in a
book called "Tuning" (1991, Michigan State Univ. Press)
Green's book is listed in the HG bibliography on the website. As far as I
know it's still available, either directly from Indiana Univ. Press, or
from the online booksellers.
Alden
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 02:37:14 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Corette tuning
>According to Green, here is the translation of what Michel Corette wrote in
>"La belle vielleuse":
>Green and Professor Owen Jorgensen then tell us what this means:
>
>"Tune the trumpet to C. Then tune the melody strings to G in unison, using
>a narrow fifth between the trumpet and the melody strings.
>It's not clear from this discussion whether the first set of fifths are
>perfect or not, simply that there are three sizes: wide, narrower, and
>narrower still. Green and Jorgensen believe that this tuning is very
>similar to a temperament called "temperament ordinaire" described by
>D'Alembert.
Just a note...are you sure about the name?
I mean, Corette and CoRRette are the same?
About CoRRette (la belle vielleuse) he was an organ player mostly and his
tuning metod is good (maybe) for keyboards but not for a gurdy since he
suggests to use narrow fifth between G of melody strings and C of drone
strings.
According to Corrette you should tune trompette and mouche as a "narrow"
fifth (or your mouche couldn't be in tune with melody strings).
Do you really want to play with your drone strings out of tuning?
Marcello
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---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 02:49:25 -0500
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: HG: Little Red CorRette tuning
Marcello says:
>Just a note...are you sure about the name?
>I mean, Corette and CoRRette are the same?
Catherine wrote Corette - I incorrectly said Corette, should have been
Michel Corrette. I don't know if this is the Corrette Catherine was
talking about, or someone else.
>About CoRRette (la belle vielleuse) he was an organ player mostly and his
>tuning metod is good (maybe) for keyboards but not for a gurdy since he
>suggests to use narrow fifth between G of melody strings and C of drone
>strings.
>According to Corrette you should tune trompette and mouche as a "narrow"
>fifth (or your mouche couldn't be in tune with melody strings).
>Do you really want to play with your drone strings out of tuning?
Definitely not!
I confess I am confused about how this tuning works, to say nothing of its
validity or usefulness. I just quoted the passage and hope that someone
else can make sense of it for me. ;-)
For instance, how do you tune the chanters and trompette to a narrow fifth
when they are a fourth apart? Or is it the octave key note of the chanters
and the trompette that are supposed to be a narrow fifth?
Alden
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 03:13:54 -0500
From: Catherine Keenan <cath _at_ pathcom.com>
Subject: HG: "Correctte" tuning
At 06:13 PM 2/6/00 -0500, alden wrote:
>"The string named the trompette is tuned in Ut and the two strings in the
>keybox are tuned to the unison of Sol (B) [so that] the fifth [is] a bit
>narrow against the Ut (A) ...
thanks (i think) alden for this -- it's the conductor herve nique(t) who
wants this *unique* tuning... only one question: if we're tuned to 397
instead of 440, does that mean the ut (a) is really ut (bflat)? (this is a
rhetorical question... you've all done enough on my behalf!)
anyway thanks for the note about bob green; i read his book several years
ago and forgot all about this! i can get it out of the university library here.
and I thought the parts were hard enough...
xo for now
cath
ps no more cracks about my hasty spellings! anyway regularized spelling is a
post-18th-century invention...
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 03:17:53 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Little Red CorRette tuning
>I confess I am confused about how this tuning works, to say nothing of its
>validity or usefulness. I just quoted the passage and hope that someone
>else can make sense of it for me. ;-)
>
>For instance, how do you tune the chanters and trompette to a narrow fifth
>when they are a fourth apart? Or is it the octave key note of the chanters
>and the trompette that are supposed to be a narrow fifth?
trompette is in C' (middle C) and chanters are in G' (G of the key
signature) and this is a fifth.
Corrette wrote that you have to tune the chanters in a "narrow" fifth with
the trompette....the meaning is: trompette and chanters makes a NO perfect
fifth.
So....how do you should tune the mouche? If your mouche is one octave below
the chanters it'll be out of tuning with both trompette and little (C)
drone.
When I use the mouche (rarely indeed...) I like to have a perfect "interval"
(ok? :o) between little drone - mouche - trompette (fifth - fourth).
Marcello
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 03:33:55 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: "Correctte" tuning
>... only one question: if we're tuned to 397
>instead of 440, does that mean the ut (a) is really ut (bflat)?
It means you're going to play about ONE tone below the modern usual 440.
Corrette used to say that the "correct" pitch for all musical instruments
was the "Paris Opera" pitch (probably because of the singers) and several
original flutes of the Opera were really tuned so low during the 18th
century.
Frans Bruggen used that pitch in several baroque french recordings with his
baroque orchestra.
Marcello
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:14:24 -0500
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Little Red CorRette tuning
> Marcello says:
> >About CoRRette (la belle vielleuse) he was an organ
> >player mostly and his
> >tuning metod is good (maybe) for keyboards but not
> >for a gurdy ...
Alden replies:
> I confess I am confused about how this tuning works,
> to say nothing of its
> validity or usefulness. I just quoted the passage
> and hope that someone
> else can make sense of it for me. ;-)
Roy T. sez:
I was skeptical about the tuning, but figured I didn't
know enough about what I was reading and would plow
through it again after I had more experience. I occurs
to me now that the "Corrette Tuning" the conductor
wants may not be the same thing, but something else
developed for keyboards. Anyway, I'll be very
interested to learn what the harps. player says.
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:31:50 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Little Red CorRette tuning
>Marcello says:
> >Just a note...are you sure about the name?
> >I mean, Corette and CoRRette are the same?
>
>Catherine wrote Corette - I incorrectly said Corette, should have been
>Michel Corrette. I don't know if this is the Corrette Catherine was
>talking about, or someone else.
this is what I wanted to say, I was just asking if those Corette was M.
Corrette or another person.
I know about a so called "Corrette's pitch" but anything about a Corrette's
temperament.
By the way...
my Ghironda Page (www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045) has an english page now
nothing special, just some new links and a new page about abstracts from
18th century French hurdy-gurdy methods (in french, english and italian...)
I'm waiting for corrections...:o)
ciao
Marcello
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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:12:33 -0500
From: David Bawden <David.Bawden _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: HG: Lurking in the background...
Hello HG list members
I am another who has been lurking in the background for a few months. But
now that my hurdy-gurdy has arrived I would like to introduce myself.
My name is David Bawden and I live in Barnet which is the northernmost part
of London. I play keyboards in the Angel Band (x2 fiddles, x2 melodeons/
anglo concertinas, keyboards, occasional clarinet, cello, trombone) and we
are the resident band at the Islington Folk club and play (mostly) country
dance music from the south of England.
We decided to branch out last year and four of us took the trip to St
Chartier, me to pick up my hurdy-gurdy and Nick to buy a set of bagpipes.
Unfortunately Helmut Gotschy, who was making my HG, broke his leg just
before the festival and couldn't finish it in time or get there himself.
It's taken a long time for Helmut to get back to work again, and so my HG
finally arrived only a few weeks ago. Since then its been all tuning up (is
it always this frustrating?).
And now a (very basic) question...
The HG came in G/C tuning but I would prefer it in D/G. I've changed the
chanterelles as per the Muskett book and other books. The 1st chanterelle
is now a Savarez BRH 74 and the 2nd a Savarez BRH 104. The chanterelles for
the G/C tuning, tuned perfectly to the octave as does the 2nd chanterelle
with the D/G tuning. But the 1st string just won't tune. At an octave below
it's intended pitch (d') the octave is fine, but at its intended pitch
(d'') it is about a semi-tone flat at the 7th tangent, even with full
adjustment of the nut. Because the 2nd string does tune to the octave at
the 7th tangent, I guess this is something to do with the string. Do I need
a thinner gauge? Help!
I hope to see some of you at St Chartier this year.
David
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:28:13 -0500
From: R. T. Taylor <rtaylor _at_ amp.csulb.edu>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Lurking in the background...
David Bawden wrote:
>
> And now a (very basic) question...
>
> The HG came in G/C tuning but I would prefer it in D/G. I've changed the
> chanterelles as per the Muskett book and other books. The 1st chanterelle
> is now a Savarez BRH 74 and the 2nd a Savarez BRH 104. The chanterelles for
> the G/C tuning, tuned perfectly to the octave as does the 2nd chanterelle
> with the D/G tuning. But the 1st string just won't tune. At an octave below
> it's intended pitch (d') the octave is fine, but at its intended pitch
> (d'') it is about a semi-tone flat at the 7th tangent, even with full
> adjustment of the nut. Because the 2nd string does tune to the octave at
> the 7th tangent, I guess this is something to do with the string. Do I need
> a thinner gauge? Help!
>
> I hope to see some of you at St Chartier this year.
>
> David
Welcome to the list and welcome to the world of the D/G Hurdy Gurdy.
I sometimes have the same problem. My Hurdy Gurdy has a movable nut for each
string and I just move it to make the necessary adjustments for any strange
string trouble. It can move about 1.25 inches so I have not had any problem
getting it to work. However I have sat and watched makers like J. Grandchamp
and Boudet throw away 2 or 3 brand new strings that do not perform correctly.
I would try some more of the
Savarez strings and maybe another brand too.
Also I started out with the 104 strings and was advised by Patrick Bouffard to
change to 94 and this is what I have been using for about 10 years.
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 02:30:02 -0500
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: HG: Archives
Dear List,
New editions of the archives are up: October, November, and December of
1999, and January of 2000. The archives are accessible through a master
archive page:
www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/listarch/hg_arch.html
Enjoy!
Alden
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:23:11 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Baroque HG week end
Dear List
I'm going to do a Baroque Hurdy-Gurdy week end on
Saturday 6 and Sunday 7 of May
in a marvelous place near Vicenza.
2 days full board and lodging, good food, hopefully excellent red wine from
Veneto region and 12 hours instructions for no more than 12 people
(beginners and intermediate "baroque" level).
Please use my personal email for more informations
ghironda _at_ hotmail.com
end of advertisement :o)
ciao
Marcello
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:12:41 -0500
From: Theodore Bick <theobick _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
Marcello wrote:
I'm going to do a Baroque Hurdy-Gurdy week end on
Saturday 6 and Sunday 7 of May
in a marvelous place near Vicenza.
2 days full board and lodging, good food, hopefully excellent red wine
from
Veneto
I am jealous. Next life I want to come back as an Italian.
Theo
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:26:29 -0500
From: "Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com" <Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
I would love to attend your baroque hurdy gurdy weekend. Where is
Viscenza? I'm in Seattle, Washington. I assume you're in Europe? Do you
know anyone who is involved in Baroque Hurdy gurdy here in Seattle? Were you
here fairly recently? You were on King FM 98.1 playing baroque hurdy gurdy?
Was that you? I couldn't figure out why your name sounded so familiar. But
now I think I know! :) Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:44:20 -0500
From: Roy Shrive <beerroybeer _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Need help
Hi Everybody,
Ineed a little help. [Actually a lot of help] I have a set of plans from
MusikMuseet in Sweden. They list it as the "hungarian model on their web
sight but on the plans it is refered to as Vevlira which I think is probably
just Swedish for Hurdy Gurdy. Anyhow, what I need help with is I am going to
build it [but] In studying the plans there is something I don't understand.
On the string on the far left it looks like there is an adjustable bridge
with three positions then there is what seems to be a lever that runs under
it andto the top of the tail piece that holds the chanters. Is there anyone
out there who has built this instrument or has these plans that could shed
some light on what it is, what it does, and how it is connected. There was a
construction book that came with the plans but since I don't read or speak
Swedish it isn't much help.
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---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:08:21 -0500
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Need help
Hi Roy:
The adjustable bridge you refer to is actually the Hungarian buzzing
bridge (dog), which in form and construction is very different from
the French instruments' dog. The three mortises you notice supposedly
allow adjustment of sensitivity on the dog (not all Hugarian HGs have
multiple mortises -- mine doesn't and I can't say that that has
caused me any problems). The lever you refer to is what you use to
really control the dog. I have heard varying accounts as to how it is
"supposed" to work, but the set-up I use works well and is reliable
(with some practice of course!). Pushing the lever in forces the
bridge down to the face of the soundboard and the more the lever is
pushed in the more cranking speed is needed to get the bridge to lift
off the soundboard and buzz. On the other hand adjusting the lever so
that there is less downward force on the string will make the buzz
easier to obtain.
What is your time frame for building your instrument? I could take
some pictures of the set-up on my instrument and send them to you via
e-mail (which would take a few days as I would need to bring in my
instrument and borrow a digital camera). Pictures of how the
instrument is set up would be the biggest help for you, I think.
I am also drawing up a set of full scale plans of my instrument (they
need some work and some time, so it may not be until about April that
they will be complete). I have not seen the MusikMuseet plans, but it
is possible that the level of detail I am including in my plans will
help you. The next logical part of my efforts is to work on precisely
the area of the instrument where you are lost. If you are interested
I will send you the relevant portions (as an Adobe PDF file) when
complete.
By the way, in case the plans don't state anything about this, the
tuning on the Hungarian instruments is almost always as follows:
drones tuned to A and chanter(s) to E, because you want the tonic to
sound when depressing third lower key. (Many Hungarian instruments --
no just HGs -- show this sort of tuning).
-Arle
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:49:06 -0500
From: J J Andrus <jjand _at_ juno.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
Hi Judy,
Yes, there are those of us in the Seattle area who enjoy playing Baroque
hurdy gurdy. I used to get together with another player until he moved
away. Want to play some duets?
We've been lucky enough to have Marcello come and instruct at the Over
the Water Hurdy Gurdy Festival near Pt Townsend each September. Last
year he played a whole Baroque concert after the Festival (which is why
he was on KING FM.) If you didn't receive information from us about the
Festival last year, if you send me your address I will be sure to add you
to our mailing list. Just think of 4-5 days of Baroque instruction and
hearing Marcello in concert...
If you are able to attend Marcello's weekend in Italy - go for it! You
will be amazed at how much you will learn from him.
Joanne
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:13:14 -0500
From: "Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com" <Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
Hi Joanne and thanks for your e-mail. Please add me to your mailing list:
Judy Laub
4717 S. Bennett St.
Seattle, Wa., 98118
(206)721-3030
I would love to go to the September Festival and actually could use
information on when that will be so I can make plans. I'm in graduate school
and will be starting an internship this summer along with working full-time
so advance planning for the festival would be helpful. Please let me know
about any baroque hurdy gurdy music you might know of that's going to be
happening in the area. I would love to go hear it. I don't own a hurdy
gurdy yet, but have sent money in for Alden and Cali to add me to their list
of prospective clients. Is there any information you might be able to give
me in regards to a baroque style hurdy gurdy? I don't know how it differs
from say the Volksgurdy model and this would be helpful information. I'm
also interested in playing other styles of music like celtic, french country
for starters. I would be interested in hearing what the difference is
between a baroque and another style hurdy gurdy. :) Thanks! Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:45:06 -0500
From: J J Andrus <jjand _at_ juno.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
The Fifth Annual Over the Water Hurdy Gurdy Festival is scheduled for
Sept 19-24, 2000. We'll be at Fort Flagler again, where accomodations
are "rustic," but we have plenty of rooms for classes, dancing, jamming
and even practicing.
I'll make sure you get on the mailing list, so you'll get the brochure
just as soon as it comes out.
Joanne
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:03:21 -0500
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Need help
Hi Roy,
The Hungarian style instruments have a different system for the "chien" or
dog. These are the parts you are referring to. The bar of wood which
sticks out is used to adjust the tension rather than having a peg attached
to a string as the french version does. By the way, you are correct about
the term "vevlira", it is Swedish for hurdy-gurdy.
:-)---Cali
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:28:48 -0500
From: Roy Shrive <beerroybeer _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Need help
Hi Cali And list
Thanks for the response.Other than this one area these plans are pretty
clear and detailed.I still can not see how it operates though. The lever
goes through a slot on the underside of the bar that holds the "dog" which
has a dowel or peg at either end of the bar to connect it to the
soundboard.I am assuming those pegs are not glued in the sound board. But
what keeps the adjusting lever from just falling out?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:08:58 -0500
From: Roy Shrive <beerroybeer _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: Need help
Hi again,
I want to thank everyone for the help they gave me. With your help and
studying the plans again, it has become a lot clearer. Someone tell me if I
am right. The adjusting lever goes through the bar that holds the "dog" and
rests on top of the string, thereby creating a wedge. Thanks again for the
help.
Roy
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:00:21 -0500
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Need help
Hi Roy
I have what I think are the same Swedish plans, but I have not build my
version yet because the body is built like a cello and there is a lot of
carving to be done on both top and back. I am waiting for the incentive to
take it on. It is also a very long instrument, and I am trying to cut back.
You are right about your assumtions: The string goes over the buzzing
bridge, and under the wedge. The wedge slots under the housing bar, which
is pegged and glued onto the table. The upward tension of the string keeps
the lever from falling out.
I would be very interested to know how you get on. Good Luck.
Juan
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:17:24 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: HG: San Francisco
I will be in San Francisco next week...any hurdy gurdy music, places
to visit, or contacts anyone can recommend--to make a technology
conference a little less....um, you know.
Thanks.
judith
Judith Lindenau, CAE, RCE
Traverse Area Association of Realtors
http://www.taar.com
icq 6445710
MAILTO:judith _at_ taar.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:17:01 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <bono _at_ risc990.bologna.enea.it>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
Hi Judy
I'm sorry....I know I'm Italian but you don't! :o)
> Where is
>Viscenza?
Vicenza is in north-east Italy, between Verona (the town of Shakespeare's
Romeo and Juliet) and Venice (the real one...with the water between the
buildings :o).
>Do you
>know anyone who is involved in Baroque Hurdy gurdy here in Seattle?
There is a festival in September, just near Seattle, and I'll be there as
baroque instructor, there will be other masters as Pierre Imbert and R.T.
Taylor for modern and traditional HG music...I hope to meet you there!
>You were on King FM 98.1 playing baroque hurdy gurdy?
>Was that you?
Yes it was me.
ciao!
Marcello
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:04:43 -0500
From: "Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com" <Jlaub357 _at_ aol.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Baroque HG week end
Thanks Marcello for responding to my e-mail! And all the way from
Italy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the information. I will look
forward to hearing you in person at the September Festival! :) I don't
own a hurdy gurdy yet. But I'm working on it!
Judy
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:21:25 -0500
From: Marcello Bono <ghironda _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: HG: HG strings
Dear list
I'm working (?) a lot on my HG page in english.
There is a new page about HG strings:
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045/strings/strings.html
please let me know what do you think about it, I'm waiting for correction,
suggestion, critics....
Italian version of this page is coming soon...(I still have to translate
from English to Italian...:o)
ciao
Marcello
______________________________________________________
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:46:35 -0500
From: "Lleehill _at_ aol.com" <Lleehill _at_ aol.com>
Subject: HG: Introduction to the List
My name is Linda Hill and my husband, Scott, and I have just gotten a hurdy
gurdy from Skyline Gurdies in New York (via Ebay!) (flat-back, 2 melody
strings, 2 drones -- push tangents rather than "keys"). We are both total
beginners at the hurdy gurdy and look forward to hearing from all of you on
the list. I've visited the Alden & Cali Hackmann website and will probably
call and order the video today!! This is going to take some study!
Musically, I direct a small Medieval/Renaissance vocal ensemble (LyonSong)
which has just published its first CD (mostly a capella with occasional
percussion) and I'm now trying to learn how to build a webpage to advertise
it. Our "biggest" venue so far is the Huntington Library in San Marino where
we have put on holiday concerts (in Renaissance costume) for the past 4
years. I am also trying to learn the harp this year and I play keyboards and
guitar as well as singing (alto). My husband also plays guitar (MUCH better
than I do!). I program all of my music groups' music on the MAC and that's
how they all learn the music since many of them do not read music and a
couple have no prior choral experience.
I hope to use the hurdy gurdy to supplement our sound with either Scott or I
playing. I like Ethan James and I also liked the use of the hurdy gurdy by
Loreena McKennitt on "The Book of Secrets" album. I saw her in concert and
the hurdy gurdy player really rocked out! I also liked the use of the hurdy
gurdy by the Boston Camerata in one of their concerts ("Feast of the Ass" --
a costumed liturgical musical play). Although I got a later "style" of hurdy
gurdy for my learning model, I consider this to be a trial one and I hope
someday to get a medieval "box" type (provided I can learn to play well
enough ;-} ). Yes, I was positively slathering over the one on the
Olympia webpage!
Does anyone else out there have one of the Skyline gurdies? Tuning seems to
be my first hurdle to overcome and they provide no materials to help with
getting started. It seems to be fairly well put together even if the crank
is large and a little awkward. As I said previously, I was glad to find this
website because I know I'm going to need some serious resources to get up and
playing.
Look forward to reading your posts.
Linda Hill
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:42:52 -0500
From: Jay Hurwitz <jay_hurwitz _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: HG: HG: Introduction to the List
I guess it's as good a time as any to introduce myself
to the list. My name is Jay Hurwitz and I live in
Hollywood, Florida. I have a lute-back hurdy gurdy on
order from Olympic. I play the piano though not
professionally. Being very into folk music, I became
aware of the hurdy gurdy through recordings by Ethan
James, the Mandel Quartet, Patrick Bouffard, Telynor,
Rene Zosso, Ad Vielle Que Pourra and Blowzabella. I
love the sound - especially the chien. I hope to be at
the festival/workshop in Washington next September and
look forward to meeting many of you there.
Best regards,
Jay
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:26:57 -0500
From: Xurxo Romani de Gabriel <jromanid _at_ medynet.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Nigel Eaton and Mrs McKennith
> < I like Ethan James and I also liked the use of the hurdy gurdy by
> Loreena McKennitt on "The Book of Secrets" album. I saw her in concert and
> the hurdy gurdy player really rocked out! >
I saw the concert too. The hurdy-gurdy player is Nigel Eaton, Chris Eaton�s son.
He played formerly in the super-band Blowzabella, and I had the chance of meeting
him when he came to Spain for a workshop organized by the Iberian hurdy-gurdy
association. He is a great player, and a very strange guy. He has almost left
professional playing, and he dedicates most of his time to teach car driving
(!!!). The times are hard.
He has a very personal style, not as virtuosist as Chabenat�s or Clastrier�s, but
he feels the instrument in a very percussive way, treating the dog as a drum
player would do. He uses one of his father�s HGs (of course), and if you�ve ever
tried an Eaton�s instrument you�ll never want to play on anything else (personal
experience). He never makes identical HGs. They are so strong you can leave them
"sleeping" in the rain, inside a car, or under the sunlight, and nothing happens
to them. Nigel does. He left his HG it all night outside the case, at 10 cm from
the fireplace, and when I warned him, he just said "I play on this because it�s
undestroyable". The sensation of turning the handle is like swimming in water.
Chris Eaton worked for the British Army years ago, making test equipment for the
weapons, a very skilled job (!!!). Most of those HGs have a double keyboard, so
you can play chords with 2-3 fingers if you get the skill to do it.
Talking about Loreena, I�ve always had a personal animosity against her. Her
music sounds brilliant, but it�s just "easy listening" for me. Nigel agreed 100%.
The best of "the book of secrets" and "Live in Paris and Toronto" is Nigel Eaton.
That�s what I think. The controversy is served...
XURXO
Barcelona
Catalunya
Spain
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:58:41 -0500
From: Jay Hurwitz <jay_hurwitz _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Nigel Eaton and Mrs McKennith
Xurxo:
To call Loreena's music easy listening is a travesty.
If you do not like her music that is fine. She weaves
an abundance of textures encompassing celtic and new
age influences with early instrument experimentation.
She has a unique sound that has great appeal. Perhaps
if I could listen to one of your compositions I might
understand how from your viewpoint it should be done.
Jay
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:47:54 -0500
From: arle lommel <fenevad _at_ ttt.org>
Subject: HG: Cutting key mortises
Hello:
I am working on a Hungarian HG and am trying to figure a way to
precisely cut my mortises in the key box. I am splitting the keyboard
face and cutting the mortises with an exposed edges. I tried to do
this with a miter gauge and a dado head on a table saw but was not
satisfied with the results (they were too jagged) and I would prefer
to cut them with a router. Anyone have any suggestions?
-Arle Lommel
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:47:51 -0500
From: J J Andrus <jjand _at_ juno.com>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Introduction to the List
Welcome to hurdy gurdies and the hurdy gurdy list, Linda. It's nice to
have another "early music" person here. I play and enjoy immensly the
folk music, but my love is Medieval and Renaissance (well, Baroque, too)
music. I play in a Med/Ren dance band that performs in costume.
I recently (Dec 99) received my Symphonie from Olympic, just in time for
me to take it to a 10 day gig out of state. I was amazed every night
when it would stay in tune for hours through each show, being a brand new
instrument with brand new strings. Most hurdy gurdies enjoy being a
little tempermental, even when played in, but this Symphonie has been
great from the start.
Good luck with your new hurdy gurdy.
Joanne
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:14:04 -0500
From: XTOFFF <chriscyb _at_ cybercable.fr>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Introductions
Alden & Cali Hackmann wrote:
> In editing the first month's worth of posts to the list, I came upon a
> great suggestion: when people subscribe to the list, they should give a
> little introduction about themselves and their interest in the instrument.
> John Peekstok suggested that I include this in the information that you get
> when you subscribe. I'd like to do this, but I don't have access to that
> file ;-(
>
> So, if you have haven't introduced yourself, I hope that you will do so.
> Thank you.
>
> Alden the Listmaster
Dear Hurdy-gurdy List Members! :o)
Dear friends!
I am back to the forum, at last!
I have been quite busy and away from Paris! That explains why I haven't been
writing for about two months to the list!
Since I have been told to introduce myself, I will do it right now! At your
orders, Sirs!
I am silly and I like to make silly jokes, like RT! I am Christophe TELLART and
I live in a silly city called Paris (yeeeeerk!), though my silly roots are
Ukrainian and Georgian (Georgia in Caucasus, not the state in America; " nobody
is perfect "!). My mother is from Odessa (Ukraina) and Mtskheta / Batumi
(Georgia). I will offer a bottle of champagne to the first person who can
pronounce ' Mtskheta ' correctly, I promise!
I am a harpsichord player (continuist), a hurdy-gurdy player and a French and
medieval bagpipes player! When I was 4 years old, I wanted to drive cranes (!)
but now, I am an (eclectic) professional musician and a member of four groups
of Ancient, Renaissance and Baroque music: the " Real " Ensemble (direction:
Pascal COTE, a Swedish & French group), the " Perceval " Ensemble (direction:
Guy ROBERT, a French group!), " Hesperion XXI " - formerly known as " Hesperion
XX " but they changed the group's name in January because we are in 2000 now! -
(direction: Jordi SAVALL, a Catalan & international group!!!) and the "
Convivencia " Ensemble (direction: Bernard REVEL & Friederike SCHULZ, a German
& French group).
I am lucky because I travel much and because music is my passion and my job! My
other passions are foreign languages and foreign cultures, travels, Martial
Arts, litterature, swimming, computers and mountains!
I also am involved in traditional French music (and in Ukrainian, Georgian and
Scottish folk music). I used to play with Patrick BOUFFARD - and his formation
- and also with a bagpipe player called Jean-Claude BLANC! Now, I am trying to
create a group of folk music (with a preference for the traditional music from
the Center of France, of course) with some classical and contemporary musical
influences! I would like to start an open formation with traditional and
classical musicians from France and maybe from Ukraina. We shall see what the
future will be since it depends on many factors! :-/
I am quite happy to see that there are so numerous people who already
subscribed to that Hurdy-Gurdy List; I hope there will be more and more so that
we can share our common passion: hurdy-gurdy, traditional and Baroque music!
I will try to come to Saint-Chartier for the first two days (it depends on when
I will be back in France) and I will be more than happy to meet some of the H.
G. List subscribers there! I already have many friends in the States (such as
RT, Cali and Alden, Marilyn, etc...). Anyway, I hope I am welcome to join the '
party ' with the other friends in Saint-Charcutier! I don't smoke and I don't
drink any alcohol! So, an orange juice will be just fine! Waiter, please...!
:oP
Ch. TELLART
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:14:25 -0500
From: XTOFFF <chriscyb _at_ cybercable.fr>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Ornamentations and variation...
"R. T. Taylor" wrote:
> XTOFFF wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone! :o)
> >
> >
> > As a harpsichord and a hurdy-gurdy baroque and traditional player, I will try to
> > give more precise advices about ornamentations and variations.
>
> All of your comments were very well written. I am sure that your new book will be
> interesting to read as well as helpful to improve how we play.
>
> As I like to point out, it will also be very helpful to create a video to go along with
> a book and CD. Or create and " Extended CD" that includes movie files. I just got a CD
> of a Basque group that included a lot of information about the instruments, the players
> and history of the music along with movie files of them in performances etc.
>
> >
> > > If you want to learn the correct words of ornamentation (pinc�, port de voix,
> > > mordant, trille, appogiature,....) , just read some books about the playing of
> > > baroque music.
>
> > I have those books and manuals and I can tell you that these are
> > outstanding works! It will be a pleasure for me to make a list of them if you are
> > interested!
>
> That is a great idea and would be very helpful. And please give us advice on where we
> might be able to buy them or see them.
>
> > I will try to give some personal tips and advices towards a progression in the
> > mastering of ornamentation, variation and also dissociation for the hurdy-gurdy
> > skill a bit later if you want me to do that!
>
> Well that is one of the best uses of this Hurdy Gurdy forum.
>
> Now I have a short question for you.
>
> You also play Bag Pipes. When I listen to you play, it sounds to me that the
> ornamentation that you use on the bag pipes is different from the ornamentation that
> you play for the Hurdy Gurdy.
> Is that correct? And if it is true can you explain what they are.
>
> A lot of us must listen to CD's and records to learn new tunes. This gives us a guide
> for ornamentation. But many times the melody is played by bag pipes, accordion or
> violin. And I assume that each instrument will adapt the playing style as well as the
> ornamentation to each instrument.
> It also seems to me that the ornamentation style changes when the instrument switches
> between being a "lead instrument" and a backup or second voice instrument.
>
> Thanks for your advice.
>
> One last comment.......
>
> When I first started to play Hurdy Gurdy, I asked the people that were much better
> players than I was, how to play ornamentation, or " how did you just play that" or
> " how did you get that sound".
>
> The answers that I got most of the time were usually one of these:
> I don't know.
> Oh I am not sure how I play that. It is different every time I play.
> I really don't know, I just play that way.
> I'll try to brake it down for you. Let's see now, how do I do that? I really can not
> play it slowly. Sorry, I really can not explain it.
>
> So you can tell that it can be very hard for an interested player to improve when you
> can not get useful answers.
>
> So thanks again to Christophe, Maxou and all of the people that are helping all of us
> out on this list.
>
> r.t.
Hello again, RT! :o)
Hello again, Hurdy-gurdy List Members!
As you know, I was quite busy those last weeks and I can respond your message posted to the
hurdy-gurdy list only today! However, I will try to reply to your " small question " about
bagpipe's ornamentation. All comments and reactions are welcome, of course, since it is
hard to explain that through the Web without any ' audio ' examples:
Yes, RT, you are ' kinda ' right! The ornamentations we use on the bagpipes are different
from the ornamentations we play for the hurdy-gurdy. The rule is the same for me when I
play bagpipes or hurdy-gurdy. It applies to everyone, I think!
I might be wrong, but I think that most of ornamentations used in bagpipe music are
different from those used in the hurdy-gurdy music for a good reason: bagpipes are wind
instruments and not stringed keyboard instruments, so it is impossible to get exactly the
same effects and ornaments (or grace notes) on the bagpipe as on the hurdy-gurdy!!! The
fact is that the way of playing ornamentations on bagpipes isn't the same as on
hurdy-gurdies; the skills and technics are different!
Generally speaking, ornaments on bagpipes are traditionally called ' grace notes ',
especially for the Scottish, Galician or Irish pipes! We call them ' ornaments ' or '
ornamentations ' (I take the English word used in classical music but I am not sure that it
really suits the hurdy-gurdy! Just tell me if I misuse the words, please!).
On bagpipes, you can play a single note ornamented with one, two, three (or more) grace
notes performed with the different fingers of both hands, which is rather rare on the
hurdy-gurdy! Of course, the fingers used to make ornamentations vary according to the types
of bagpipes being played. Some bagpipes have an open fingering, some others have a closed
one. Some pipes use only 6 fingers, some others use 7, 8, 9 or even all 10 fingers ('
shepherd Scottish or Georgian pipes ' or some Northumberland pipes)!!! On bagpipes, it is
possible to perform specific ornamentations on a continuous note by playing some high or
low notes (with fingers) while maintaining that single note. Those ornamentations with
*low* notes (birls, slurs, taorluath or crunluaths on Scottish bagpipes, for instance)
aren't possible on hurdy-gurdy (because of the string's vibration, of course)!
Many grace notes are common in the bagpipes' world but each type of pipes (and each type of
bagpipe music) admits its own ornamentations, grace notes and way of performing them.
As for Baroque Music (since the forum seems to be really involved in that kind of music!) -
speaking about melodies composed for droned instruments, hurdy-gurdy and " musette de cour
", of course! - some pieces are initially written for the hurdy-gurdy, for the " musette de
cour " or for both instruments (in duets, " suites ", ballets, concerti, etc...). If tunes
have been written for both instruments (i. e. " musette de cour " & hurdy-gurdy), the
ornamentations used and indicated will be the same for both instruments but the way of
performing them will be different, what is obvious, of course!
To conclude (because I am getting tired of what I am typing and also because it is really
hard to explain that theoretically!!!), I would say that some ornamentations are
specifically intended for the hurdy-gurdy and some others are for the bagpipe! It merely is
a matter of physical possibilities! :o)
Ch. TELLART
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:00:24 -0500
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Cutting key mortises
Arle said:
> I am working on a Hungarian HG and am trying to figure a way to
> precisely cut my mortises in the key box. I am splitting the keyboard
> face and cutting the mortises with an exposed edges. I tried to do
> this with a miter gauge and a dado head on a table saw but was not
> satisfied with the results (they were too jagged) and I would prefer
> to cut them with a router. Anyone have any suggestions?
You could try using a router table with a very precise and stable mitre
gauge and something like an Incra Jig (TM) which allows small and precise
movements of the fence. Even this system may prove to be too "floppy" for
the precision you are looking for.
Cut both sides at the same time, with extra waste pieces on the front and
back to prevent tearout.
Alternatively, you could see if you have a friend with a machine shop who
has a milling machine. Very stable, very fine accuracy (errors should be
under 0.001 inch), very precise depth.
By the time you've done all this cutting apart, routing or milling, gluing
back together, and clearing the glue from the corners of the holes, you
may find that the traditional method of drilling, chiselling, and filing
isn't as laborious as you thought. ;-) Especially if you're just making
one instrument - view it as meditation, put on some good music, and do
some fine handwork. YMMV.
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:54:55 -0500
From: XTOFFF <chriscyb _at_ cybercable.fr>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Ornamentations and variation...
ghironda _at_ hotmail.com wrote:
> Dear Christophe
>
> Thanks a lot for your interesting letter.
>
> I will take what you wrote to go further
>
> >It depends first on what you call ornamentation; don't forget that most of
> >ornamentations are written in Baroque music.
>
> I think that they used to write the ornaments expecially when they wanted
> you to play "exactly" that way (harpsichord music, for exemple), or when the
> music was intended to be played by beginners.
> I got lot of baroque music without any kind of signs; and I think that it
> was usual for a baroque player to play according to what was a well known
> style (I mean, they HAD to play ornaments in baroque music anyway,
> expecially when ornaments were not in the score :o)
>
> >When you play in an '
> >ensemble ', you really have to follow the general " meaning " or the main "
> >message " of the pieces you are performing.
>
> I aggree but in hurdy-gurdy and continuo sonatas, for exemple, the "main
> message" is the gurdy part mostly...I think that a really good ensemble
> should be able to follow the soloist, whatever he/she plays.
> If continuo players know how "listen and follow" the music will be
> marvelous...it happens to me several times and those times I played better
> than usual, because I felt free to play my way, knowing that other musicians
> were able to enjoy that way of playing.
> It was quite strange anyway that I had those performances with unknown
> player mostly, while it seldom happened in established ensembles :o)
>
> >In Baroque music, variations are usually written and ornamentations
> >are indicated too when possible!
>
> I don't think variations were usually written. It usually never happens in
> slow movements of baroque sonatas, while, according to a lot of baroque
> methods (and common sense of taste :o) you should play some variation in
> every ritornello.
> If you play just the written variations (if any), so ALL Vivaldi's slow
> movements will be boring :o).
>
> >Sorry, Maxou, but the ' port de voix ' isn't really an ornamentation but
> >rather a
> >generic expression for any dynamic rendering of an ascendant or descendant
> >group
> >of joined notes! There are many kinds of ' port de voix ', actually...
>
> right....Bouin, for exemple, used to call "port de voix" even a long
> ascendant appoggiatura, followed by a short pince'....:o)
>
> I'm looking forward to see your books (and to meet you too :o)
>
> Marcello Bono
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Hello Marcello! ;o)
I am late, as always and I can only respond your mail tonight!
Yes, you are right and I also think that a good ensemble should be able to
follow the soloist, whatever he or she plays.
I am a harpsichord player and a continuist; I must admit that I love the '
continuo ' part I have to play with the ensembles I work with because I feel
comfortable and because I don't really feel like a soloist (I am not good enough
to be a soloist and there are many other harpsichord players who rule!). I like
the ' continuo ' part the most because I can express myself by listening and
following the music! I follow the other musicians and soloist(s) and especially
the musical " wave " and motion! It is exactly what I wanted to express speaking
about the fact that when you play in an ' ensemble ', you have to follow the
general " meaning " or the main " message " of the pieces you are performing. In
instrumental suites, I really believe, as a harpsichord continuist (I don't play
lute or bassoon!!!) that you have to merge with the main musical rhythm, with
the other musicians as a whole.
It is quite another job with singers and soloists who sing since you have to
follow them and to follow their own rhythm, prosody and intonation. It is what
Rinaldo ALESSANDRINI and Andreas STAIER keep repeating... Vocal soloist(s)
really have to be watched, especially with vocal music. Of course, ' continuo '
rules and skills are quite numerous. Musicians don't codify them in the same
general way and there are somevariants in coding the chords and in codifying the
movements. I think it is one of the reasons why it is hard to ' realise ' a part
and to vary in the precise style of the music and author when you play a piece.
Of course, many composers indicate their own ' tablatures ' for ornamentations
for their works.
What is predominant is that there is a really important personal contribution in
diminutions and variations in a ' continuo ' and in Baroque interpretation, a
bit like in traditional music! It is only a comparison! I could speak about
musicians I know (such as DUPHLY, MONTECLAIR, MARAIS or RAMEAU) of course. I
also could speak about Baroque Italian and German music but I won't forget it is
a hurdy-gurdy forum!!! Sorry for that... Let us create another forum about
Renaissance or Baroque music! :o)
To finish with ornamentations and variations In Baroque music, I was trying to
say that variations are usually written and that ornamentations are indicated
when possible but I wasn't speaking about slow movements of baroque sonatas
since they have to be performed in groups or ensembles. I was refering to
harpsichord music (and to J. S. BACH, J. P. RAMEAU and Louis & Fran�ois
COUPERIN). Sorry, Marcello, for having omitted to be more precise! And you are
right: as a general rule and according to many Baroque treatises, variations
aren't written in sonatas or suites, of course.
I will be pleased to meet you sometimes soon! Italy and France are like
neighbours, sono paesi vicini, naturalmente !
Ciao a tutti!
Ch. TELLART
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:02:23 -0500
From: XTOFFF <chriscyb _at_ cybercable.fr>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Re: HG: Ornamentations and variation...
Sorry... I was speaking about duets, " suites ", ballets, concerti but I have omitted to
mention the " sonatas ". It is a mistake since the " sonata " is one of the main musical form
in hurdy-gurdy & " musette de cour " Baroque music!
Christophe T.
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:03:57 -0500
From: "dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk" <dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: HG: Re: HG: Cutting key mortises
To: dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk
From: fenevad _at_ ttt.org (arle lommel)
Send reply to: hg _at_ hurdygurdy.com
Subject: HG: Cutting key mortises
Date sent: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:47:56 -0500
Arle writes
> Hello:
>
> I am working on a Hungarian HG and am trying to figure a way to
> precisely cut my mortises in the key box. I am splitting the keyboard
> face and cutting the mortises with an exposed edges. I tried to do
> this with a miter gauge and a dado head on a table saw but was not
> satisfied with the results (they were too jagged) and I would prefer
> to cut them with a router. Anyone have any suggestions?
> -Arle Lommel
>Hi Arle,
Some time ago, I found myself seduced by the idea of machine
cutting key slots, and with care and an elaborate router jig,
produced some very accurate pieces. However, I did find as Alden
points out that the time involved in setting it all up, makes it no
quicker than cutting by hand, and returned to a craft alternative. My
method is to clamp a cork lined steel edge along the cutting line, and
having drilled a suitable hole, cut down to the steel guide with a skew
chisel. If this is kept good and sharp, and has a very acute angle,
the same chisel can be used to cut the top,bottom and sides with
great accuracy. I attempt to finish the slots to size with the chisel, as
filing does roughen up the wood and make the faces a little woolly.
This may not be the best way, but it works for me.
Cheers,
Dave.
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